This Week:
1. Tripods for Appalachia
2. Danish Police State
3. The Motherfuckin Resistance VS VPD
4. Undercover Police Fail
5. A new type of hero
6. I Shot the Sheriff
7. Shut your Pie Hole
8. Lierre Keith’s Vegetarian Myth
37 thoughts on “Shut Your Pie Hole”
Comments are closed.
She deserved the pie. Post vegetarians are the biggest posers going.
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I don’t know. Personally, I’d rather pie the man your mama calls “Obama” than someone who wrote a book.
hey stim – whassup?
i was all ready to send you a note about how this episode is why i think your show is hands down the best – specifically ’cause you are willing to cover important current events like the christopher monfort trial when other movement media are either too ignorant or too afraid to do so.
but c’mon, why do you then gotta go devote half the show to making us all feel better about eating meat, something we all get inundated with every single day? there is no untold story here. lierre didn’t even give a single argument against veganism in that interview. she said pretty much nothing new. in fact, i think most everyone who knows their shit would agree with much of what she said – the problem is her insane attacks on vegans and vegetarians, such as calling not wanting to eat meat a “political agenda.” if someone called fighting any other form of oppression a “political agenda” on your show, you would give em a righteous smackdown. why not now?
i’m not vegan (i’m vegetarian), and although i think saying that people can “eat whatever the fuck they want” is irresponsible and will leave our generation in the dustbin of history, i’m not going to proselytize my meat-eating friends and i agree that a few hardcore vegan activists need to chill the fuck out. but the real issue is much broader than that. who know who really needs to chill the fuck out? the mothafucken meat industry and their apologists like lierre keith, who talk about how meat would be okay, if only it were done in a way that is never going to happen before collapse, and in a way that is never going to happen without the work of the people she calls names.
in short: more monfort, less lierre, please. argh!
<3
ps. here’s some more about her book at indybay: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/06/12/18601536.php
Hey Haloka, thanks for your comment. I don’t think I spent half the show making people feel better about eating meat. I gave Lierre, who’s an ally, a bit of time to explain her position. I think that’s fair and I have not seen any evidence that she’s a meat industry apologist. On the contrary, she’s against the meat industry as well as industrialized farming. What I meant by “people can eat whatever the fuck they want” is that I support people’s rights to eat tofu and veggies to their heart’s content, i.e. I support vegetarians and vegans. But the self-righteous attitude of many vegans is reprehensible and it does not help. If people want to call out Lierre, challenge her to a debate, dispute her facts, just don’t fill her face with chili peppers.
What I don’t understand is why her book is not called “The Agriculture Myth” if her actual concern is topsoil. To prioritize going after vegans and vegetarians instead of industrial agro-capitalism seems foolish and vendetta-ish. It’s not vegetarian diets doing most of the destroying. Until we get to her neo-romantic hunter/gatherer society, a vegan diet is a very responsible one (esp. if locally-sourced). Not to mention that while she may not share them, there are very cogent moral/ethical arguments against the consumption of animal products.
Like haloka, I take issue with the claim that “people can eat whatever the fuck they want.” I “can” go to McDonalds and get a burger, but most of my friends and comrades would rightly consider me a wanker for doing so.
Finally, you must appreciate the irony of your statement that “If people want to call out Lierre, challenge her to a debate, dispute her facts, just don’t fill her face with chili peppers.” Cause that’s exactly what every hack who gets pied says – “don’t pie me, let’s talk about it.”
I also get annoyed by animal rights activists who are so singly-focused on one issue that they’re blind to everything else. But really they’re more right than wrong. And to take disagreement with their tactics and turn that into a pro-meat thing just doesn’t make sense.
Hey AWK, thanks for your comment. As far as the title of Lierre’s book, I have no idea why that title was chosen.
Again, my statement about eating whatever the fuck you want is misunderstood. I meant that if you want to be vegetarian that’s your choice and I for one will never encourage anyone to visit Macdonald’s. As I said on the show I am not against pieing. But when cops pepper-spray us at demos we complain about it. Why did they have to use hot peppers on the pie? I don’t think it’s ironic for me to call on allies to debate other allies instead of trying to humiliate them in public. Under our current circumstances it’s the least I could ask for. Like or not Lierre is on OUR side. Finally, I never made this to be a pro-meat or anti-vegan anything. I felt that due to the controversy, people needed to hear Lierre out and that’s why I created space for her to do so. I know that the short format of the show does not allow for the full spectrum of her argument to come through but at least opens the door to conversation.
With respect, she was a vegan for 20 years, and now both denounces vegans in the title of her book, while cramming her pie hole with destroyed animals. Sounds like a movement traitor to me; ergo, by the logic of the Stimulator, the pies were justified.
“And seriously, if we as a society can’t even bother to treat a simple,
unassuming, stunningly gentle and demonstrably sentient creature
like a cow or a deer with a modicum of decency, how the fuck do
we ever expect to be able to treat each other–infinitely more complex,
wildly divergent and often exasperating individual human beings–
with anything even remotely resembling civility? It just ain’t gonna
happen.” – Chris Hannah
Lierre doesn’t need any help getting her message out–her book is popular enough and some of my friends have already started eating meat again.
Also, her reply to your cow far question deserves criticism. While cow farts only make 2% of total greenhouse gas emissions, methane is 26 times stronger a greenhouse gas than CO2. Also, she didn’t state how much of a % change a non-corn cow diet would make. My guess is probably not enough to change things. The problem is that there are too many cows on this planet. And what’s getting worse: the U.S. Food and Agriculture Organization says that agricultural methane output could increase by 60 percent by 2030. Her suggestion that we can eat meat as long as we feed them differently is silly day-dreaming, utopian thinking. Changing cow diets wont change things. We should stop eating cows.
And your comment that “people can eat whatever they want” does not come across the way you say you intended it at all.
I agree the hot peppers were unnecessary. I dont think this woman deserves to be given the “authority treatment” that you seem to be giving her, though. I think she should shut the @#$% up, personally. Her book is not helping anyone. It is called “the vegetarian myth” because marketing decided that would attract attention. “The Agriculture Myth” just wouldn’t sell as many books, I think. If people decide veg*nism is going out of style and buy her arguments, that’s just more money for the meat industry.
Hi Hairy, thanks for your comment. Just how is title “The Vegetarian Myth” denouncing vegans? Titles are usually hooks to get people to read the book. It’s a time honored tradition. Ever heard the saying “Never judge a book by its cover”? How is she a movement traitor? Lierre is a defender of nature in the purest sense of the word. Again, you need to look deeper at her work and not judge her on superficial things like book titles.
As far as the Hannah quote, yes as I said in my show, factory meat production needs to be stopped. Cows are treated in the most horrendous way by our civilization.
Hey Deniz, thanks for your comment. Apparently Lierre does need help getting her message out, because the point of her book continues to be missed. If people have issue with the title that’s one thing. Again, my show can’t give unlimited time to guests to answer all questions. But as far as the methane question, I don’t think Lierre is suggesting that we keep eating cows the way we do now as long as we feed them grass. Lierre is anti-civilization, which means that any sort of organized meat production, even meat production in which the cows are fed grass does not fit into her world view. I suggest you read her book and that of her collaborators, Arc McBay and Derrick Jensen so you can have a better sense of where she’s coming from.
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Hi all,
About more cohesion in Archisme and scientific fear of the movement:
http://chomsky.info/interviews/20100312.htm
which is I think rooting in the same ignorance of disliking ‘The Vegetarian Myth’. Myths are not bad or good, it’s about magic and illusion, if you want your system to work, better know how.
Even if true, the scientific world have a big step to do to move the whole machin to scientific revolution, even if I think a small pourcentage of scientifics, and maybe the best ones, are smart enough to be communist and anarchist by essence of freedom. Internet have been design in this way, that’s why it’s so fast: no controls.
To explain what something is, never means we don’t like it, your best mates are not perfect. I did not read Lierre book, but for what I hear she’s just explaining what’s going on because she knows what’s going on. Then you choose what to do, she’s not here to say it.
For my own opinion I think we should not kill any animals…still I might go hunting and kill a beast for my familly once, and see how I feel about it. Maybe I won’t do it again, maybe I will.
If eating only vegetebles is not sustainable for our huge human community and world, we can also reduce our babies number, as two humans making two humans seems the maximum balance. Then if you fall in love again, you’d better kill the younger one. I hope you find that funny because it’s a joke 🙂 Enjoy. And thank you for our concern and your reviews, I love it.
Hey Stim,
The title of her book is so horrible, that I was unable to turn my judgement into curiosity.
I suggested Lierre was a movement traitor because it sounds like she turned her back the animal rights movement. I came to this conclusion based on the fact that she was a vegan for 20 years, and now wears a leather jacket and eats murdered animals.
I understand that we can’t just be vegetarians, sing “give peace a chance” and assume everything will be okay. I recognize that we need to look for a radical solution to our food production. Nevertheless, within this pursuit for sustainable eatery, I in no way see it necessary to kill, skin, chop up, cook, chew and grease shit an innocent animal.
Moreover, the Hannah quote not only speaks to factory farms, it refers to how we treat all animals at all times. Oppression is oppression.
I can appreciate that Lierre is an ally. I have no doubt that she has done great work in the past, present and will continue to be important in the future. However, when she turned her back on our little buddies, the animals, I am glad she was called on it.
Hey Hairy and Alleluia, thanks for your comments.
I believe that most North Americans would not eat meat if they had to kill the animal themselves and the includes me. But this does not mean that I condemn folks who eat meat in a sustainable way. The argument against killing animals does not really hold up when you put it against the way first nations live(d). Here in BC, most first nations ate what they hunted and fished and did it sustainably for over 10,000 years. In the arctic the Inuit have to hunt their food because there are hardly any vegetables. Again, they never over fished or over hunted, and honored the animals they ate. There is no evidence of animal oppression within these nations. Now I have great respect for those like you who have an affinity to all living beings but you can’t in good faith tell the first nations to stop eating fish, bears, elk, whales etc. They’ve known how to manage the land and we should look up to them now as we look for ways to live in harmony with nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit#Diet
Hey Stim. Thanks for keeping the movement focused.
Hey Stim, how the fuck are ya?
I can dig what you’re saying: we absolutely should look up to first nations as we look to live in ways harmonious with nature. Nevertheless, I’m still not hearing a cogent argument for destroying animals.
I ain’t no thumper, but I do subscribe to The Golden Rule: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You. Thus, if you don’t got the chops to shoot yourself in the lung with a bow and arrow, slit your own jugular vein with a knife, shoot yourself in the face with a gun or stab yourself in the ass with a harpoon, you should probably reconsider doing it to others, including non-human animals.
Again, I respect yourself and Lierre looking for a radical solution to a serious problem, but I still think we can do it without killing animals.
pointing to the Inuit as a justification for eating meat in America is disingenuous. it’s like all the phony hippies in the 60s and 70s running around in fringe leather jackets and birkenstocks thinking that made them closer to the earth and native peoples. also, there have been mass extinctions caused by native peoples in the americas — it’s an over-romanticization to believe that there was no disharmony with nature ever. they made war, they over-hunted at times. and it’s pure fantasy to believe that 7 billion humans can ever go back to a hunter-gatherer existence (unless you are a misanthrope hoping for the death of 95% of humanity, as Kieth does). in the meantime, everyone who frequently eats meat and dairy contributes to factory farming, where virtually all of it comes from in the US today. what is not sustainable is for people to continue to eat meat and dairy three times a day every day — that’s why factory farms exist, to provide for the massive amounts of animal products US consumers eat (KFC alone goes through 800,000,000 chickens a year, yes millions). Keith’s plan only works if people are near-vegetarians and barely ever eat meat or most everyone on the planet dies, but don’t expect her to be honest about that.
as for Keith being authoritative in a scientific way (or any other way), or that the attack on vegetarians was only on the cover of the book, consider that she continues to peddle the *myth* that vegetarians are emotionally unbalanced and angry because they can’t get tryptophan in their diets. that’s simply untrue. I’ll let you google tryptophan food sources for yourself. check out the first chapter of her book at the indybay link above for a taste of her unscientific and mean-spirited attack on vegetarians
as for Keith being an ally, her very first reaction to being pied was to yell, “someone call the police!” that reveals a very privileged perspective — people of color and the poor don’t presume that the cops are there to serve them. really, what did she expect the cops to do, put out an APB to apprehend the suspects and then throw them in jail?? she’s actually much better allies with the low-carb fad diet people — they love to hear her smear vegetarians with untruths. they were all over the pieing online and she milked it for all it was worth. little do most of them know that, while she cries about being pied and called the cops to an anarchist bookfair, she hypocritically advocates for saboteurs disabling the power grid: http://www.inthewake.org/keith1.html how many people would die if that happened? probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions. my allies are not Pol Pot-styled city-hating genocide mongerers. it’s so insanely naive of her to think that disabling the electrical grid without notice would kick off a perfect pastoral world for those who survived rather than a thousand other possibilities such as empowering brutal warlords with the most guns who don’t give a snot about the environment
as for the pepper in the pie, she sure looked fine just 15 minutes after the pieing while she was talking to the cops: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php?show_comments=1#18642962
Keith is a mean-spirited, misanthropic fraud. she’s not a self-identified anarchist. and she’s not even radical, other than through the fantasies she peddles for profit about humans living again as they did thousands of years ago. several times since the pieing she noted with glee how her amazon.com ranking went up — that’s just not the way true revolutionaries think
Hey Twirling Fart Knocker, thanks for your comment.
No one is trying to justify eating meat in America by using the Inuit. I was merely responding to Hairy’s concern about killing animals. We can’t possibly ask the Inuit to (a) stop eating animals or (b) to move to where better veggies grow. Only privileged white folks tell brown peeps what to eat and what not to eat.
I also never said the first nations are perfect. Some of them even used slavery. But in terms of managing the biosphere, they have done much better than white people. Just like what 500 years of European occupation have done to North America alone.
People who are vegetarian also contribute to factory farming not just those who eat meat. I would never encourage people to support factory meat or factory farms.
The post-pie photo proves nothing. I saw Lierre today and she still has an ear infection from the hot pepper pies.
Finally, this whole situation begs a few questions:
What did the pieing accomplish.
If you are so concerned with Lierre spreading her message, wouldn’t proving her wrong like you are attempting to do here be more effective?
Was the pieing effective or did it help her further spread the message you dislike so much?
Are more sales on Amazon are sign that the pieing helped her sell more books and further the message you hate so much?
Is it ok for anarchist men to assault a woman with hot pepper pies?
If anarchists want to support the right of the female gender to express themselves, are anarchist men going to defend women when they are assaulted?
If no anarchist men come to her defense, what is a woman who feels threatened by men to do?
thanks for your reply, but you failed to address most of what I wrote about. okay, you never said native peoples have been “perfect” but neither did anyone her ever say that the Inuit have to eat like people in America, so that’s a straw man to pretend that you are the big Inuit defender here.
on the factory farming tip, anyone who frequently consumes meat OR dairy in North America inevitably contributes to factory farms. if miraculously you have the privilege to afford all grass-fed animals, you are ignoring the simple fact that there is not enough grass and not enough land to feed over 350 million people meat and dairy on a frequent basis without factory farms. that’s a very privileged diet. the answer lies in significantly less meat for everyone more than what the animals eat.
the post-pie photo indeed proves something (as does the video you can easily find). that Lierre wasn’t so hurt as she claimed to be. her eyes weren’t even red 15 minutes later and there was no redness or marks on her face. (are you a doctor? did you examine her ear and can you prove her ear was infected as a result of a pie? or did she *tell* you her ear was infected by a pie? many other people, male and female, get pied and don’t play a fraction of the victim she has in this)
it would have been nice if you had something to say from my previous comment about her calling the *motherfucking* police for a pieing (send pie-ers to jail?) or what you think about her anti-civilization electrical grid disabling misanthropy (which is faaaaar more illegal, and deadly, than a pieing btw) — and if at least you see any contradictions or hypocrisy between those two — but that’s okay for now. maybe you have some thoughts on her continued lying about tryptophan and the mental imbalance of vegans, or any of the other bad science in her book and public statements?
I understand the drive to stick up for brutalized women, but this just isn’t it. she is a woman, but she wasn’t brutalized and she’s not an ally.
here’s a comment left elsewhere that reveals the contrast for those who feel compelled to rise to the occasion by some misguided sense of chivalry
check how classy Medea Benjamin was after a pieing versus ultimate victim Lierre Keith
by contrast and compare
Monday Mar 15th, 2010 6:58 PM
To Those Who Threw a Pie in My Face, Let’s Swap Recipes
by Medea Benjamin
On the eve of the closing of the first ever US Social Forum in Atlanta, CODEPINK hosted a reception in the Peace and Justice Tent. We raised our glasses in a toast to the historic gathering and the wonderful activists from around the country. We belted out “Ain’t gonna study war no more†and other peace songs in three-part harmony. We laughed raucously as we enjoyed each other’s company. And we closed with a congo line that snaked out of the tent. Suddenly, while basking in the warmth of the camaraderie, I felt someone’s hand smashing into my face. It was so quick I didn’t have time to even close my eyes. With goo dripping down by face and my eyes burning, I realized I had been “pied.†I invite you to see the photos and video that my attackers posted online. You’ll see how our merrymaking was spoiled by not-so-merry pranksters guilty of a pie-by hit and run. http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/07/01/18432047.php
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/07/02/18432132.php
———-
note that Medea says her eyes burned. almost any liquid in your eyes will at least temporarily because it doesn’t match the PH of your eyes. even water will sting as we all know. yet Keith lies about pepper being in the pie to make herself out to be a uber-victim. Medea was also pied very directly straight in the face (see the video linked here) where as Lierre was hit only on the top and side of her head (see video link above). vegan haters everywhere have been acting like pepper was rubbed directly into her face, almost as if it was punched into her face, completely smeared. it was a typical pieing, but she has her worshippers all worked up into a frenzy now. did Medea immediately yell out, “call the police?” did she say, “I don’t care about anarchists?” nope. and nope. she took it in stride and even made a funny post about it later. so much different from the humorless vegan-hating Keith.
several people indeed reported hearing Lierre snort after the pie, “I don’t care about anarchists”
lastly, yes, if vegans did this, it was not a clear win. the issues of her fraud was highlighted for those open to the message where it wouldn’t have been if everyone sat quiet while she spieled at the anarchist bookfair, but her book amazon.cm sales have apparently risen, as she delights in telling anyone who cares. you probably think it’s ridiculous to even consider, but IF she wasn’t really hurt AND her book sales with vegan-haters obviously rose (especially with her low-carb allies), then PERHAPS (follow the money) it could have been a well-planned FALSE FLAG operation on Keith’s part. but you’ll probably blow a fuse at even the suggestion, so much so that you’ll overlook everything else said here
Dear Stimulator, I’m a gonna digress a little from vegan verses omnivore, Lierre verses just or not desserts and take a minute to reflect on a few questions you raised in your last reply here.
“If anarchists want to support the right of the female gender to express themselves, are anarchist men going to defend women when they are assaulted?”
In any passionate situation, violent or not, reactions are often complicated by context making a hardline for individuals or movements difficult to maintain. Having ideals, stratigies and tatics formulated makes sense but as an anarchist my reactions are often unpredictable. To me, it makes sense to look at violence against women in a case by case scenario.
The Heart Attack March
The majority of the riot pigs out that day were men. During the splintering of the march, many of the attacks from said boars on the black bloc were inflicted upon women. I witnessed several groups of people attack the riot cops in defense. These folk came from many persuasions of gender and from what i could discern, all were anarchists!! So I guess my answer to your second question,
“If no anarchist men come to her defense, what is a woman who feels threatened by men to do?” I guess i hope them bitches got my back.
Hey twirling fartknocker thanks again for your follow up. You have a strong opinion about animal rights and Lierre has strong opinion about factory farms and factory meat production. I have provided a safe space for her to say her piece and for you to provide a series of retorts. Isn’t that nice? The Anarchist Bookfair is supposed to be a safe place for these ideas to be presented and debated. That safe space was violated, period. We can get into particulars about the potency of the pepper in the pie, but the truth is that the talk and subsequent Q and A were disrupted and the overall goal of the presentation was not met. Now, imagine if every single speaker on the bookfair feared a piening? Now, if you have further beef with Lierre’s ideas, I strongly suggest you contact her. She’s very approachable and easy to talk to. There’s a contact link on her websiste – http://lierrekeith.com/About.htm . If this does not satisfy you, may you should write a book about your vegan ideas. When it’s published, you should present it at the bookfair.
Hey Ivana, the Heart Attack March won a little piece of, well, my heart. The camaraderie and solidarity of the folks involved should be an example to us all. Thanks for pointing out the heroics of the people involved.
Hey Ivana thanks for your comment. I thought I had responded but alas tech fails again. All I can say is that the Heart Attack Action is one of the best examples of discipline, militancy and solidarity that I’ve experienced in my community. Thanks for pointing out the brave men who protected the women being attacked by the pigs. I did not know that but hope that I can find video of it, so it serves as an example to men everywhere. Assaults on women are not to be tolerated.
Hey Stimulator,
Thanks for covering the Lierre Keith pie incident.
It’s simply amazing how many of her critics clearly have not read her book, otherwise they would actually attempt to debunk some of her central arguments. I think it is totally inaccurate to say that Lierre is promoting a diet that supports the meat industry. Read the book: she’s saying that if we continue to impose ourselves over ecosystems and don’t learn to take our food within them, we’re fucked.
My wife and I grow most of our own food, I hunt a bit, and I can assure you that we live more lightly on the land than most vegans. I think the militant vegan subculture is a totally confused phenomenon, largely composed of people who grow none of their own food and promote a diet that destroys topsoil. I don’t agree 100% with everything Lierre says, but this is a truly profound read. The woman is fucking brilliant.
Keep up the good work.
Hey Stimulator –
Thanks for posting about Lierre. I have seen so many so-called “allies” of the resistance throw shit at her (literally and figuratively), which I find to be almost entirely baseless.
If you have a problem with her book/premise/presumed rage against veg*ns:
1) Read her book. I don’t care if the title or her jacket offends you. You have no argument unless you have read it.
2) Having read the book (twice), having seen her speak in person more than once, and having even been able to have a small group dinner with her, I know that she is absolutely and without a doubt against oppression, against factory farming, against injustice, against industrial agriculture, against police statism, against patriarchy, etc. She is a tireless ally for all the “good” things we work for.
3) She was a vegan for 20 years and it destroyed her health. This book is in part a warning for all those fanatical, dogmatic vegans out there who cringe at the thought of butter or cheese touching their tofu patty. I know too – I was vegetarian for 7 years and 3 of that was spent being vegan. She wanted to give her story as a warning to any vegan out there who might be experiencing similar effects – telling them to get out now while they have whatever health remaining.
3) Her wearing a fur coat or eating meat or wanting to call the police or saying something in frustration under her breath about anarchists comes from this premise of hers: “The task of an activist is not to navigate systems of oppression with as much personal integrity as possible – the task of an activist is to confront and dismantle systems of oppression.” Please read that quote, then read it again. Being a vegan is a personal “solution”, not accepting help from police when you are physically attacked is a personal “solution”, and while I won’t claim to know everything there is to know about anarchy, because I certainly don’t, the reality is that the resistance is not an individually based solution – it must be a group effort, an organized, probably hierarchical group effort.
As was stated in the video, turn your rage against the people who really deserve it, not one of our most dedicated allies.
@Everyone:
I applaud Frank, and the few of you who left rational responses about the unwarranted controversy surrounding Lierre. Unfortunately, I didn’t have time to read all of the comments, but I did see quite a few that compelled me to respond. The message I am about to convey is coming from my experience as an activist and an organizer for community, for labor, and for politics.
You can learn something from anyone.
I’m not sure from whom I learned this lesson; perhaps Hermann Hesse, Khalil Gibran, Robert Frost, Arundhati Roy, as those were the authors I was reading at the time. Regardless, I took this lesson to heart, and I’ve since made it a point to come out of every conversation having gained insight into my own life. I can assure you that this has been beneficial to me, as it continues to add to my value as part of my community, as it can to you.
It is at the core of this mantra, that open doorways to participation, cooperation, and community. The core of this mantra is listening. When one listens, one can begin to learn, one can begin to understand. This very process alone puts you above the majority in this globalized civilization.
When speaking in terms of strategy, if you are opened to understanding those around you, especially those you disagree with, you have given yourself an advantage. This is because you will know how to speak with them, and offer your agenda in a way that appeals to them. At the very least, you will come out with an effective seeds planted every time.
Having said all that, I will get to the point. Everyone has some kind of idea that the world is fucked up. Few of us are educated well enough to know exactly HOW it is fucked up. We need every ally we can get. I don’t just urge you, but I am calling you out to say that if you can’t look past your ideals (knowing what you know, and how crucial our time here is spent) to build strong communities, with a strong knowledge and skill base, the G T F O ! You DO NOT belong with us. Your childish and naive ways will only get us put in Federal Prison or Gitmo, later down the road.
In Solidarity,
hack
@Stimulator reference Ivana Rumble’s reply.
Shifting topic back to the issue raised by Ivana Rumble. Maybe I get this wrong because that happens quite often, but Ivana Rumble’s post suggests that in response to your question: If no anarchist men come to her defence, what is a woman who feels threatened by men to do?†I guess i hope them bitches got my back” is the idea that women come to the defence of other women. I’m down with that. Regardless of gender or however people self-identify their sexuality, we all come to the defence of each other. A slightly less dichotomized thinking and the response is “If no anarchist men come to her defence, what is a woman who feels threatened by males to do? Then I guess I hope them bitches, lesbians, transgenders, transsexuals, bisexuals, pansexuals or whoever got my back.
Many interesting thoughts are being discussed. I once wrote Lierre about her book because I was unnerved at the assertion that vegans were in childlike naiveté about industrial agriculture. My questions were addressing the basic truth that most of the agricultural activity that Lierre professedly detests results in carcasses staring up at us from our plates, not local food forest permaculture or even tofu. When she responded I was astounded by a rude and snotty dismissal of my questions with her urging me to “read the book”. There’s no chance of me buying or even reading a free copy of a book by someone who treats potential allies with indignant loftiness. As far as I’m concerned she left the movement, she betrayed the animals and vegans, and she was pied. Nobody was able to protect her because it was a tactful action, the culprits are free to raise more awareness about the reality that is ignored and hidden, the billions in abject misery each moment, their walking graves spout eulogies in contrived emotional illusion. They write books that rationalize that bloody habit, the converted cult acts as their proof of righteousness. Lierre isn’t the first and likely won’t be last to offer condolences for the mindful among murderers.
veganerd,
“My questions were addressing the basic truth that most of the agricultural activity that Lierre professedly detests results in carcasses staring up at us from our plates, not local food forest permaculture or even tofu.”
As someone who has grown soy beans on a small organic scale, I would say that roughly 0 percent of the soy that people eat-organic or otherwise-is derived from local food forest permaculture. Lierre’s book is well worth the read and a real eye-opener. As far as I’m concerned, Big Meat and Big Soy are front and back of the same coin. Two facets of an industrial agriculture that is killing the planet. It appears to me that most vegans are quick to criticize Lierre, but never seem to take on her central arguments. I don’t agree with everything in “The Vegetarian Myth”, but it is an amazing book. In fact, I can’t think of a better work around which to build meaningful, sustainable food policy. As far as I’m concerned, leaving the ranks of the militant vegan subculture is the best thing a sane and committed radical could do. As for betraying the animals….well, read the book. This is an absurd accusation.
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Nice show Stim! Thought “The Movement” was about freedom. Silly me. Pie someone, well if you have to–but a Pie with pepper spray? How Cop like. Keep up the work. Sorry I’m so broke ass, wish I could financially support you more. Damn, maybe we should all support each other and move on the power structures. Not each other.
On creating food forests see:
http://fuckcopyright.blogspot.com/2009/04/establishing-food-forest-permaculture.html
Although they use animals, their relationship with them is to let them live a full life rather than slaughter them.
Here’s my favorite blog on this topic:
http://permavegan.blogspot.com/
Now please stop making excuses, liberate yourself from mental slavery and free the would-be victims from the cycle of suffering.
Here’s a lot more food for thought:
http://sustainable-farming.blogspot.com
http://fuckcopyright.blogspot.com/search/label/Documentary%20-%20Animal%20Liberation
Lierre, Pollan and others are helpfully questioning our modes of food production, although their presumption that everyone must be like them is the primary complaint for many people discussing food with vegans, it’s the essence of the self-righteousness accusation.
Ideology, speculation and self-centered justification are at the core of the unprofessional, inarticulate way which L. Kieth professes the vegan diet won’t be healthy despite what the American Dietetic Association, or the World Health Organization, or renowned and extensively published researcher Dr. T. Colin Campbell, and many other accredited people say.
Other books, like The Secret Lives of Plants (circa 1970), do cover the subject in depth. That particular book is outdated, yet I would reread it before reconsidering reading Kieth’s writing. Biodynamic, veganic micro-farms, and food forestry perma-culture methods are much more promising to the whole biotic community than the noble primitive myth.
The one truth we agree on is that our population is much too large. Easy oil energy allowed us to expand beyond the carrying capacity of eARTh, especially with us increasingly depleting the supply.
If Lierre knew about some inevitable catastrophe, that no one else knew veganism led to, then I’d be glad she wrote in the nonsense context of derision to vegans. Contrarily the catastrophic effect of animal agriculture is right there with mountain top removal, damming rivers, nuclear weapons or power plant meltdowns, turning wood pulp to paper rather than the sustainable herb hemp, and the cumulative effect of burning our Mother’s blood and bones to power the progress parasite, we call civilization, which is quickly inhibiting the survival of our only known host organism.
Radical thinkers and authors are needed, yet the horizontal hostility began in L. Kieth’s first chapter when she trivialized and tokenized vegan ethics to make herself feel better. Anti-big agriculture? Does L. Kieth know that 95 % of the big fish species in the ocean are expected to go extinct by 2050. What was her first meal after reentering psychosis? She had tuna from a can using a plastic fork. Is she really someone to look to as a guide for sustainable or compassionate living?
Hey Stim,
This shit is fucking confusing. First of all, to say Keith is a movement traitor is not far fetched, look at what she did after the pie in the face. She had the the police called. She stated it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woFD8pp3rRU. If she really didn’t well, that just makes her a liar.
Secondly, well, it’s true. Those who oppose her, must read her book. I’ve read it, it is a definite slam against veganism with no cited evidence but really there is much more to it.
Either way, I am a vegan and I have been for 12 years. I believe that the pie in the face is uncalled for. She eats how she wants and so do I. Anarchism is about freedom not slavery.
Hey Stim, looks like you’re getting a lot of flack from the ‘we only eat murdered plants’ crowd. Tough world.
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